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From: jools (Original Message) Sent: 20/04/2003 08:36
GQ&A
"What shall we talk about?
Let's start with sex"
The great Pretender Chrissie Hynde
goes head to head with kd lang
KD LANG was described recently as having "probably the greatest voice in modern pop music". Born Kathryn Dawn Lang in a small town on the Canadian prairies 34 years ago, she dabbled in performance art before becoming a country singer whose spiky hair, Doc Martens, vegetarianism and feminist lyrics baffled the Nasville establishment. Although, famously, Madonna once said of her that "Elvis is alive - and she's beautiful", lang became best known in 1991 when she came out as a lesbian, subsequently appearing on a celebrated Vanity Fair cover being shaved by Cindy Crawford. She released the Platinum-selling Ingenue in 1992, and her most recent album, All You Can Eat, was released in October, to much acclaim. She tours Britain in the spring. kd lang lives in Vancouver.
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CHRISSIE HYNDE has often been described as having "the finest female voice in rock". Born Christine Hynde in Akron, Ohio in 1952, she went to university to study fine art, but ran away to England in 1973. She squatted, shoplifted, hung around with The Sex Pistols, then formed The Pretenders in 1978, bemusing the Bristish rock establishment with her outspokenness, vegetarianism, animal-rights activism and committment to drink and drugs. Pretenders 11 was released in 1981, the last album the band made before two members died of drug overdoses. A period of relative inactivity was broken by the success of the 1994 album, Last of the Independents; a live and acoustic set, Isle of View, was released in October. Hynde has had stormy relationships with Ray Davies and Jim Kerr, but now lives with her two daughters in north London. Chrissie Hynde and kd lang met at a west-London hotel.
CH: What shall we talk about? Let's start with sex.
kdl: OK. I have been thinking a lot about sex and the threshold of what's alternative and what's acceptable now. Lesbians are sleeping with men, straight women are sleeping with lesbians, straight men are going to gay bars, and it's all getting mixed up. I think now is the real sexual revolution, because all lines and distinctions are being obliterated. And there seems to be this whole S&M and blood thing going on because that's the new threshold, the last frontier of danger.
CH: When you say the danger of sex, it seems to me the one area that has not been discussed over the last 30 years of the so-called sexual revolution is how dangerous sex can be emotionally, how close to the edge it puts a person. And when you say now is the real sexual revolution, I don't think anyone really understands what our sexuality is. It's really so far removed from the actual act of fucking; sexuality affects the way you walk down the street, how you look at things, what you listen to. But the obvious question is: do you think there's any basic difference between gay sexuality and heterosexuality? Or do you think it's a personal thing?
kdl: Its really personal.
CH: So it's irrelevant what form sexuality takes as long as it doesn't involve dismembering dogs' parts or something?
kdl: Well, that certainly goes on. But it's difficult for me to talk about straight sex, 'cos I've never been with a man. I have no idea what it's like on the other side.
CH: But you can imagine. You don't know what childbirth is like, but it's pretty damned close to what you might think. I could imagine what an acid trip was like before I was actually tripping.
kdl: Yes, but I'm thinking about the basic pathological functions of straight sex compared to gay sex and lesbian sex. The basic function of heterosexual sex is to procreate. Gay sex is completely different because I think lesbians - and women in general - have a tendency to be more emothional and more romantic.....
CH: And more monogamous.
kdl: Yes. Men, especially in the gay community, have a tendency to be just completely obsessed with sex. But the stronger the sexual release that men need, the more I'm hoping they'll leave women alone - like on the streets.
Ch: Well, that's unlikely. You see, my take on pornography, and anything which has the function of stimulating the sexual appetite, is that, generally the sexual appetite should be suppressed because it's....
kdl: But don't you think this is why we have such strong sexual appetites, because we suppress them?
CH: No. I'm not talking about repressing it and keeping it hidden, or not acknowledging it. What I'm saying is that, just as in a society like America where more than half the population is overweight because it's like a kind of food culture....
kdl: Obsessive, yes.
CH: Well, then also if you see a picture of a babe in a porn magazine it is sexually stimulating - even to me as a heterosexual woman. Men will want to fuck her, and it stimulates an appetite which, frankly, can be not only frustrating but very dangerous. Sex is the strongest drive there is to man other than his need for food - and clearly we have enough food to eat. I don't know about you, but I think about sex maybe ten times a day.
kdl: Oh, at least. I think about sex all the time.
CH: Now if I was a bloke and I had an erection and I was carrying that around and I couldn't get rid of it, what would I do? Carry a shovel with me when I go out the door in the morning? It's a lot of extra baggage to be carrying around all day.
kdl: Yes, there's a pressure-cooker effect going on.
CH: And it's related to violence. In The Bhagavad Gita, it is written that lust and anger are very closely interwoven. And yet, of course, we want to be, and feel, stimulated all the time.
kdl: Well, sexuality and promiscuity are very highly ranked in the social hierarchy of what's important. But then it also seems that everything is becoming so removed. I was talking to some people the other day about techno and how, at raves, people dance and dance and dance for, like, three months and they're all tripped out, but they never touch each other.
CH: Well, that's because of the nature of the drug Ecstasy, which you probably haven't taken, have you?
kdl: No.
CH: OK, I know you're more clean-living than I am, but what Ecstasy does is make that very synthetic music seem as if you actually want to listen to it for like eight hours, like you don't want anything to interfere with it or change it. It is like a love drug, but it stays at that level, it actually doesn't go anywhere. It's like the buzz you get if you'd had a couple of glasses of champagne, that feeling before it goes horribly wrong.
kdl: It's interesting that synthetic music seems to be the thing that perpetuates that feeling, because if it was more organic it would be almost too emotional.
CH: Yes, it would be uncomfortable. But if you want something organic you should stick to mescaline and psilocybin, where you have to keep checking to see if you haven't wet yourself because you feel that every pore of your body is excreting something. But, I mean, Ecstasy is a fine drug; it's a very ethereal, mental thing. I would take it any day over an alcohol high. Not that I'm advocating it at all.
kdl: [Laughing] You amaze me, you amaze me. I feel like, er....
CH: [laughing] Like what?
kdl: Like a kid at school. [Both laugh]
CH: Well, I've got ten years on you, that's the only difference. That's why I sat back and smiled smugly...
kdl: Oh, fuck you....
CH: ....two years ago when you were showing up at the fashion shows and getting your picture taken, and I thought, I'll give that, say, about another 25, 26 minutes before it wears off.
kdl: OK, well, at least I wore it out all right. And at least I realised I was over it.
CH: I know. I'm saving it for my old age - those fashion shows beckon.
kdl: Oh, they're kind of fun. And I'm a lush for beautiful women, anyway. I went for it, and when I was interested in the spotlight it was fine and exciting. You have to try it; you have to indulge it. You tried Ecstasy; I tried Hollywood.
CH: It's just that Hollywood's a more subtle drug.
kdl: It's everlasting though; it gets in your spine. Ok, now let's talk about feminism.
CH: What about it? Are you a feminist?
kdl: Yes.
CH: You are? As of when?
kdl: Always.
CH: I never thought I was feminist....
kdl: Oh, you're such a fucking feminist.
CH: No.
kdl: You're kidding yourself!
CH: I'm not kidding myself - a feminist once told me I wasn't; but, by definition, I suppose I am. I've never denied or confirmed these allegations.
kdl: [Laughing] I'm not afraid to say I'm a feminist.
CH: OK, I don't care if I say I'm a feminist or not. I'm going to get on stage and play my guitar and no fucker's going to stop me. So, whether you want to call it feminism or not, I will continue to do my thing. Being in a rock band was not a social statement in terms of male or female; it was a social statement in terms of "leave me the fuck alone".
kdl: Well, I don't know what the political definition of feminism is, but to your audiences you were extremely feminist. To have a strong frontwoman who actually played the guitar and didn't take any shit from anyone - that's totally feminist to me.
CH: OK, but that came naturally to me. I don't have to smoke a pipe and wear elbow patches to do that.
kdl: But you'd look good doing it.
CH: Cheers, kd. I'll bear you in mind.
kdl: I'd date you. I'd date you if you did that.
CH: You'd date me if I was in a tutu. [lang laughs] No, I'll tell you what's really gotten my goat lately. It's when I read that a sixteen-year-old girl in Algiers has been shot dead on the street for not wearing her veil. When I hear that 5,000 women a day are having their genitals mutilated and their sexual organs removed altogether for the rest of their lives. And my question is; why is it when you suggest that rapists should be castrated - which makes absolutely perfect sense, and is a just answer to rape, and sound and compassionate - that most men are absolutely horrified? That's where I step in and say, "OK, you fuckers, I'm questioning it. Just like I'm going to question factory-farming methods and the live exportation of calves."
kdl: Yeah, but sometimes I feel my efforts are squelched because of the size and proportion of what we have to face. Even after my involvement in the "Meat Stinks" campaign [in North America], I'm thinking that I'm never going to convince the whole world to stop eating meat. What good did it actually do?
CH: Well, it did. The way I see it is that we're part of a volunteer army. You did your bit and I promise you that it made a few girls out there think about it and change their lifestyles. You've set a good examply without going on about it, and I think that that always affects people in a postive way.
kdl: Well, I can't help voicing my opinion.
CH: We've talked about feminism and lesbianism, but do you think my daughters, who are aged ten and twelve, can grow up in a world where it doesn't matter if you're gay any more than it matters if you're black or Muslim? Sexuality has such a polarising effect on the community, but I don't think it matters, do you?
kdl: I do think it matters, actually. I think it matters because there is a difference.
CH: Yes, a difference, but I'm not making a judgement about it.
kdl: But I think it's almost impossible not to judge. This whole bisexual uprising has made even me question my own sexuality.
CH: What bisexual uprising?
kdl: Well, it's the bisexual revolution now. You know, just like all that lesbian chic was popular in America, now it's bisexuality. Bisexuals are standing up and saying, wait a minute, the gays hate us and the straights hate us, but we want our own rights. It's starting to make me question my sexuality.
CH: In what way?
kdl: I think we're all bisexual, spiritually and intellectually, but naturally and ultimately I'm a lesbian. So I'm struggling with these two things. Don't you see yourself as being able to allow love to transcend gender or preferences? If we fell in love, you wouldn't stop yourself because I'm a woman. Or if I fell in love with you, I wouldn't stop myself if you were a man. But there's still this thing that makes me a lesbian. I am a lesbian. I've always been a lesbian.
CH: Don't you think this is biological? Because I think I can love you as my best friend and my confidante and the person that I would run to with any kind of crisis, but I might have a very different language for my lover, and that would be in a biologically-sexual way. But for us to feel that we're denying our bisexuality; I don't know about that. Hey, look, if you don't want to suck dick, you're not missing that much.
kdl: All right, I'll take your word for it. [Laughs.] Although, I do have a certain amount of penis envy. I don't want to have one, or be had by one, but I think just the straightforward physical pleasure of having a penis....
CH: You'd love to be able to plunge it into someone.
kdl: Yeah, and I want to get it sucked. I do. And I'd like to just see what it feels like to stand up and pee. Although I can do that.
CH: I've done that. It might go all over my trousers, but I've done it.
kdl: Oh, I can do it really well, and I'd like to experiment every which way eventually. But one of the reasons I wouldn't sleep with a man is because I wouldn't feel equal, both in that I feel more advanced spritually than men, and because society places men over women. How do you feel equal when you're with a man?
CH: Well, you feel that your being there has made them a whole - that you are the missing parts.
kdl: You mean the last rib, that you took from them? Is it like putting back Adam's rib?
CH: No. You feel that they're incomplete until you're there. Men soak up your femininity like a sponge, you know. Any man wants to be submerged in a hot bath and have his feet washed and be looked after and cared for by a woman.
kdl: Is that because of the maternal thing?
CH: Yeah, because a man is still a farting, belching, grunting pig, picking his feet when he's alone. [Both laugh.]
kdl: Sounds like me!
CH: But men love a women's touch, someone who can make sure the lights are nice, that the room is fragrant. Because a woman is like the humours of the night in her very essence.
kdl: OK, this is what I'm surprised at. I'm surprised that you wouldn't want that.
CH: But I think the thing women like about the kind of guy that I'm talking about - you know, rough, bumbling, crude - is that there's a naivety and innocence about him that he doesn't recognise. They might think they're the terrorist because they're totally retarded, insensitive, stomping all over....
kdl: Oh, I agree totally. I think masculinity is bravado against the mystery of the universe of women. It's just a fear of not knowing what it is that women have that's so powerful. It's this shield that they put up to try to get closer. But they do make good friends, I must say. I like men a lot, I really do. So what are the first steps women can take towards a more feminist society?
CH: What are the messages to put across? Cool it on the silicone implants. I mean, what the fuck are 2 million women in America doing? That's one in every 40. That means you can't even go into a shopping mall in Idaho without seeing them; they're everywhere.
kdl: Yeah, any sort of alteration of the body for vanity, that's weird. It really does freak me out. But, then again, I can understand it a little because my biggest insecurity is my body - the size of my body. I'm not fat, but I want.... I want a drag of a cigarette, that's what I want.
CH: You don't smoke. What's happened to you? Do you want a whole one?
kdl: No.
CH: Wanna line of smack?
kdl: No. Where were we? It affects me because it's so fucking prevelant.
CH: In other words, this obsession with the body isn't something that just affects silly airhead bimbos.
kdl: No. It affects everybody. I don't think anyone goes to these women and says, "Get silicone breasts: you would look much better with big tits." It's her thing - she's saying to herself, "God, I would get the love of my life if I had big tits."
CH: Do you think big tits are attractive?
kdl: Well, yeah, I think they're attractive.
CH: But women are wearing them up round their necks now.
kdl: What, like Pamela Anderson? Why do men want someone like her? I have to admit I love sexy women, but surely Pamela Anderson doesn't represent someone a man would want to marry.
CH: Maybe she does, because she's not threatening to men. The more a woman has these physical attributes which are different from a man, the more he feels like a man.
kdl: But do men really define femininity by breast size alone? If they do, then I'm really feminine.
CH: But then how do men determine masculinity? By football scores?
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I hope nobody is offended by the language and more or less adult nature of the article, I apologise if anybody is. I find it quite an entertaining article.....